Yeah, because Deepwood Stalker does not exist, right?
It’s true that Whales and Flowers aren’t totally overpowered if we had tools to efficiently deal with them. But we don’t, so it doesn’t matter which card is too OP in a vacuum.
All colors have removal - red being the god in it, followed by yellow. Blue has transformations.
Yet what does green have? A 2/4 creature wich deals 2 dmg, and in most cases will even be killed in the proccess.
There is pretty much nothing you can do with 2 dmg in most of the cases. I see people screaming Frog tosser is OP, but since when? There were ways to deal 4 dmg to a creature before, firebomb being a example, or punishment dealing 2 or 5, depending on creature and even bombslinger.
Nobody had any problem with it. Now a dude that deals 4 dmg that helps out green in a departament wich it was cleary lacking, and everybody loses they’re mind. The frog tosser will take damage too, making it pretty much killable, and since when were we ever worried about a 2/2 frog?
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For your information among the guys that think Frog-Tosser needs an urgent tweak there is also Aquablad… just to make clear that it’s not a casual single player that started the argumentation, but many expert players.
Frog-Tosser is not equivalent to a bunch of spells combined at all. It’s a single card that has 5 life points more than Bomb Slinger for the same cost, also can attack everywhere, also produce a double collector, also let you develop magically a land far away from your creatures and lands. I play it against God ranked players so I know pretty well how effective it is.
Better that Frog-Tosser in middle game it’s only Azure Skywhale… try to kill it in your next turn easily when you have just lost one creature swallowed, and 1 or 2 are going to die fighting a 6/8 double collector summoned near the well you don’t control… Also when your opponent is going to summon an other whale the turn after yours…
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I agree, the new swallow card are badly balanced. Seems that they would collect money for the new cards…
You don’t need every color having every thing. What land creation does red have? What death synergies does blue have? IMHO it’s good that green doesn’t have much removal - I’d even go as far as saying deepwood stalker wasn’t necessary.
And J0k3se.
It might be my own bias talking, cause I like the card, but some sort of removal was needed for green, and deepwood stalker wasnt doing the job it needed.
Forcing creature trades with a x/3 or something along that line was just un-fun and could force the green player into bad trades.
Everybody is entiteld to their own opinions and I’m not here to change them, but IMHO frog tosser is a welcomed and good addition too the game and green-blue decks.
Green has Voice of truth
Wich acts as a debuff, not removal. They are fundamentally different.
My point is they’re not really counters. They might help get a player back in the game, but they won’t make the opponent regret playing crystal (except as I said, with the well-timed doomsday). That’s why I wouldn’t call them counters. They’re counters the same way that Firebomb and 2 Seifer’s Wraths counter a Colossus. Yes, they kill the thing, but in the end it’s a bad trade and if you play the whole game that way, you’ll lose.
Basically Crystal flower is the best removal in the game UNLESS your opponent has a specific counter to it, in which case it is only a really good value.
I’ve done this. I play janky Red combat burn and if I see Ruunin any time before my first Warlord hits I just give up. All they have to do is slam into me killing everything and I cant really do anything about it. Only reason I dont complain about it much is that its one card that’s a 1 of in a deck. They just had better luck. I also only ever saw it in maybe one game a day which is fine with me.
Swallow on the other hand I am seeing in 9 out of 10 decks a day now. Its completely shut me down. My playstyle no mater what color I pick is just obliterated because making lands is not a problem. Its not hard. It LOOKS hard but its really not. I’ve literally had games where they just sat there swallowing every thing I played every turn while a whale smacked me in the face. The only time I can start hitting face soon enough is if I rush. I have to completely stop playing midrange and even then they still stop me a good number of the times at around 5 to 10 health and I feel dirty for playing rush. I’m playing a deck I hate just as an attempt to fight a deck that I hate even more.
Swallow has become Blue counter from MTG. They decide if you get to play the game.
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Swallow is pretty much the new meta, untill tomorrow atleast when the new island comes out.
I got used to it, whales can be countered with punishment, wich is a card that can go in any deck. I also use crystal flower since every deck I build around whale doesen’t work and you do kinda need that style of removal to have any chance.
Overall I dont think the swallow mechanic is OP, even though whale do need some adjustments.
I also used to play red burn, then i switched to RY burn, probably my favorite deck at the moment. Really love how rakoan chieftain works in it.
Its a 4 damage fatty that can by itself deal with most threats in the game. It drops a 2/2 jumper that can serve as a collector and let you play a super aggressive land after sticking to your side the whole game. If its hurt to badly you just turn it into a defender or a collector, if not you push with it. It can theoretically deal with 3 problem creatures or 1 very big creature all by itself. You dont get that kind of utility in other removal.
Lets put it against Firebomb which you brought up. It does exactly 4 damage to one thing. If all Frog Tosser did was 4 damage then there would be no problems. Instead for just 1 more mana it does everything above. The high land cost is not a problem. As I’ve said and others have said. You can get that land up and running by the crucial turn 4 engagement with no problems at all. Its a Firebomb that 90% of the time leaves you with additionally 4/2, a 2/2, and a aggressive land. Less often depending on your and your opponents decks / luck it also leaves you with double collectors, a defender, two aggressors, and/or stalling your opponents monster conga line for a turn or two.
That’s a LOT of extra utility for just one mana. This also ignores the board state and the elemental’s and everything else you have already played to secure the board.
As I have stated before, I like the card. Plus it is the only way for green to deal some damage, outside deepwood stalker, wich IMO is a bad card.
Frog Tosser is IMO truly the only comback card green has. In all the other cases you play a big creature and hope to destroy as many opponent creatures as you can with it before it dies, or before they do too much damage to you. In order to make the aggresive land, you need to attack a defender, wich implies you are already winning or having an advantage. If you only have 1 creature on board, and the guy was nearing your orb with 3, you would use it defensevly, maybe killing something or making it low health, then have a frog and hopefully the tosser didnt die.
You sound like a color defender. Rather than looking at the game as a whole you are trying to defend it because its good for your favorite color/deck. The problem is that it is to versatile and to good. I’ve tried three different decks. Big Green, Red Combat Burn, and Yellow Sacrifice. Frog Tosser single handedly disrupted all three of them.
You have to be very careful with “comeback cards” because what happens if they are used when you already have a slight lead or are equal? They completely give you the advantage. Look at doomsday arguable the most “comeback card” in Faeira. It costs 9 mana, sets your mana to 0, takes half your life, destroys EVERYTHING, then ends the turn not allowing you to do anything more. It fairly decisively resets everything and the sooner you play it the more it hurts you. It is reserved exclusively for getting a second chance. This is how all “comeback cards” should work. You should never be able to play it to break a stalemate or to hold an advantage. If that is its role it should be your exit strategy when you already failed once and are heading to a loss to get a second shot at it.
Your arguments would also hold more water if say Frog Tosser only showed up in green decks. Then yeah it would basically be a green card. But no it shows up in many decks and has been called an auto include by expert players.
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I’m not defending anything. I’m stating my opinion on a card wich I like and found fun to play with while trying to explain why I think its in a good position as it is. If people wanna nerf it the devs will most likely do it and a nerf will surely follow.
From all of the colors green is actually my least favorite one, only deck im playing having anything to do with it being in a GB enchantment deck. It just seem that players have grown accustomed to the OG OP cards, and anything that could help deal with that should be removed or nerfed immediatly.
As the overskye goes on, more powerfull card will arise, and people should get accustomed to new metas and decks, if we all keep on playing GR crackthorn, sacrifice decks, blue jump, yellow rush and all that, the game gets very boring.
Ok then. In my opinion the metric of a good healthy meta for a card game with distinct colors is that each color has a deck in the top X while multicolor decks have two or three different decks in the top X. Each deck being different with a different feel. Each of those decks should have a counter in the meta that it can win against but takes a huge deal of skill/luck to do so.
Unfortunately real life doesn’t produce results that clean but its the ideal that I judge games by. If a deck ever takes over more than 15-25% of the meta the game is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.
That’s why cards like Frog Tosser rub me the wrong way so much. When they shut down so many different decks and can be added into many decks those decks it counters are automatically excluded from the meta.
So many swallows, and some of them because 3 wishes… I think this card increases the problem. Happy to know that developers think of changing 3 wishes.
Too soon to change the Oversky cards but it seems to be a problem with the whales. The flower is a good alternatives to some cards like Frogify ; maybe it would worth to be as expensive.
Well, Frog Tosser did shed 2 HP today. I can’t find the patch notes, but I seem to recall the Frog Tosser was 4/6. Now it is 4/4.
Wild Growth was also changed for some reason… or am I stupid?
Yes, both seem to have changed.
Frog tosser, even at 4/4, still seems quite OP to me. Compare it to Firebomb. Sure it has more land cost, but 2L2F2W isn’t all that much.
Wild growth - yeah, changed - weird. It seemed totally fine to me. Is this in response to the new cards? Because if so, IMHO they should try to balance the new cards around the old, not the other way round. Wild growth now sucks unless you’re after the event synergy.
