Order Of Events

Feedback and Suggestions
#1

After a long discussion on Discord, I thought I would come here to organize and present my arguments concerning the current system of “ETB order matters”. (ETB = enter the battlefield)

For those unaware, “ETB order” is very important in Faeria at present. For example, if you have two creatures next to a well, then the creature that was played first, will harvest first. Usually, this doesn’t matter, but for some specific abilities, Luduan for example, it does. If you have luduan and another creature next to a well, it’s impossible to know whether luduan will trigger unless you also know whether luduan was played before that creature.

“ETB order” matters in other cases as well. In a recent patch, AOE damage was changed so that rather than having all of the damage be dealt to each creature all at once, the damage was dealt in chunks, according to the order the creatures entered the battlefield. This means that if you have a Ruunin’s Shrine up with 7 health and your opponent cast Firestorm, that your first 3 creatures will be protected by the shrine, but all subsequent creatures will not. This means that its impossible to know what the effect of a firestorm will be unless you know the history of the game, and the order all creatures were summoned.

While these “ETB order” matters mechanics are functional, I don’t believe they lead to the most intuitive game play. In fact, I’ve never once seen a player immediately understand why they didn’t get the Luduan trigger when Luduan was right next to the well. Similarly, I would find it surprising if the interaction between Firstorm and Ruunin’s Shrine was Grokkable (able to be understood intuitively) to the average player. Even if “ETB order” matters was intuitive, I don’t think it is a good sollution as it imposes memory issues into the game. It isn’t enough to know what the current board state is, to understand how effects work, you must also know the game’s entire history. If you don’t know what order creatures were summoned in, then you don’t know what the impact of your Firestorm will be.

These memory issues are easy to avoid by switching away from an “ETB order” matters system. Instead of an “ETB order” matters system, I propose a simultaneous event system. Firestorm would go back to the old implementation, where in all damage is dealt to all creatures all at once. Harvesting would be updated so that multiple creatures can harvest the same 1 faeria from a single well. This means that when your Luduan is next to a well along with another creature, both creatures will harvest, you will get 1 faeria from that harvest as only 1 faeria is available at each well, and your luduan will trigger as players expect.

At this point, you may be wondering why, if this system was already in place with firestorm, the devs changed it to use “ETB order” matters. The simple truth is that firestorm was changed because of the way other cards worked. Firestorm was “fixed” in order to cover up a flaw in a different part of the game, namely to make Grim Guard (and the like) work intuitively with Ruunin’s Shrine. In the old system, before the patch, the combat damage dealt by Grim Guard took place at the same time as Grim Guard’s combat trigger, that also deals damage, meaning that a Runnin’s shrine with 1 health would absorb both the damage from Grim Guard as well as the damage from Grim Guard’s combat trigger. I believe this to have been a mistake. The developers fixed the interaction by ending simultaneous damage, when they should have fixed the interaction by ending the simultaneity of Combat abilities and Combat Damage.

Any cursory inspection of combat abilities leads to confusion. For example, let’s assume you have a Sagami Warrior in play and it fights a 5 power creature. Under the current system, the creature is dealt lethal damage at the same time its ability resolves leading to Sagami Warrior dying as a 3/1. This interaction isn’t limited to sagami Warrior either. Sagami Elder faces a similar problem. If you fight your Elder with a 5 power creature, Sagami Elder will be dealt lethal damage, and before it dies, it will randomly buff a creature, often itself, before dying. This leads to Sagami Elder often dying as a 3/1. These aren’t intuitive interactions and they often lead to feel bad situations where Sagami Elder or Kobold Warlord end up pumping themselves during a lethal combat while you have a board of other creatures that could be pumped.

These feel bad situations are easily avoidable. Simply end the simultaneity of combat damage and combat abilities. Instead of the current system where creatures are already dead, but not really dead as they are still on the board, have a system where creatures really do die before the combat ability resolves. To be clear, the order of events would be…

  1. Combat damage is dealt and toughness of shrines/creatures is adjusted. Combat abilities trigger.
  2. State based actions remove all units with 0 toughness from the game board.
  3. Combat abilities resolve.

…By switching to this system, the game of Faeria gets to have its cake and eat it too. We get to keep the simultaneous damage of single effects like firestorm, while letting Grim Guard deal its damage the way players expect as well. If there is a shrine with 1 health and a grim guard fights a creature, first (step 1) combat damage is dealt, reducing the shrines to 0 life, second (step 2) the game checks the shrine and discovers that it is dead and removes it from the board, (step 3) the combat ability resolves dealing its two damage to the player as the shine is already dead.

If my proposed changes were implemented, Faeria would have a consistent and intuitive system of resolving abilites and damage that doesn’t have any memory issues associated with it.

Thank you all for reading. Please feel free to poke holes in my idea.

TLDR - Two basic ideas are proposed. The first is that the “ETB order” matters system should be replaced with a system of simultaneous events. The second is that Combat abilities should be slightly modified so that combat effects aren’t simultaneous with combat damage.

EDIT: Upon re-reading this post, it occurs to me that the tone can come off as accusatory or condescending, as if I somehow know more better than the developers what is good for the game. All I can say in my defense is that I didn’t intend this tone and I don’t believe I know better than the developers. I’m merely offering an alternative to the current system, that I, as an individual, believe I would prefer. I believe many others would prefer my proposed changes as well, but leave it to them to form their own opinions. I wouldn’t bother to write such long and detailed post if I didn’t have so much confidence in the game of Faeria and the developers creating it for us.

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#2

Thank you for your detailed and thought through feedback.

I have to admit that the ETB-stuff in general, and the Luduan / faeria well behaviour in particular, was something that caused massive confusion to me (and several bug reports to the Faeria team), when I was new to Faeria. Nothing ever told you about it, so you were basically left to make the mistake at least one time. It seems that explanation wasn’t changed with the new solo content - meaning, there still is none. :frowning:

As for your change proposals:
1) Regarding harvesting effects (this occurs to Luduan and Fortune Hunter, as these two are currently the only creatures that have a harvest effect that triggers only, if the said specific creature does the harvesting):
I agree with you with one exception. Of course, enabling multiple creatures to harvest from the same well, shouldn’t mean you get more than 1 faeria. However, what do you want to happen, if two Luduans (or Fortune Hunters) stand at the same well? Should the player obtain 2 cards?
I don’t think this would be a good idea. Because as it is right now, if you want double Luduan/Fortune Hunter effects, you have to control double the wells. As long as you prevent said action, I’m completely with you. Having a “ETB order” regarding harvesting effects is a very confusing and also unneccessary mechanic that makes absolutely no sense at first glance.
Getting a blue card as long as Luduan stands next to the enemy well while harvesting is exactly what most (new) players would expect to happen.

2) AoE damage effects:
Two problematic situations come to mind. First is Ruunin’s Shrine, second are Last Words.

  • Ruunin’s Shrine: This one seems kinda problematic if you leave ETB out. Example: Ruunin’s Shrine with 1 hp is on board, you play any AoE (Groundshaker, Famine, Firestorm, Garudan, Plaguebearer, whatever comes to mind) which would hit multiple enemy targets. There are two possible ways what could happen, if you don’t have ETB-order:

  • Either Ruunin’s Shrine would soak up the whole AoE event. Do you really want that? I mean, sure it’s perfectly expected, that is, if you come from Hearthstone which feels very weird in some situations, where everything happens simultaneously as well. It might make Ruunin’s Shrine kinda op, but then again, these situations seem too rare (right now) in order to become problematic or even nerf Ruunin’s Shrine because of it.

  • Or you could trigger the AoE effects in random order. Which I’d really hate, really. I’d rather be burdened to remember the (enemy) creature’s order of play (which isn’t hard - except if “Orosei happened”) than to add any other RNG effect to an otherwise strategically very deep game. I think, most of us would agree, that this specific solution is unacceptable.

  • Last Words: You play a Groundshaker, your opponent has 1 life, you have 2 life, your opponents Seifer’s Fodder has one life. What do you want to happen? Draw? Win? Loss?
    Another (better) example: Opponent has Elder Wood Hermit, Farm Boy on board. You play Groundshaker.

  • As for simultaneously chain of events, do you want the Farm Boy to live? It seems like Farm Boy should survive, because Elder Wood Hermit could buff him back to 3 hp.
    Here’s what happens right now (iirc): Farm Boy dies at 3 hp. Which is bullshit. Now if you have another creature that survives, Farm Boy might still die at 3 hp, which is even more bullshit!

  • What if your opponent has another Elder Wood Hermit instead of a Farm Boy? Game Crash because of paradoxon? Both die? Neither dies?

  • Here’s how I would do it: Card by card. AoE triggers first. -> Game checks, which creatures died -> Then Last Words trigger, meaning that no creature that is dead could receive the buff. (Sorry Farm Boy, you die. But hey, if there’s another creature that lives for sure, it definately receives the buff. Something you can micro strategy around! :slight_smile:)

So, in conclusion, except for the fact that you’d buff Ruunin’s Shrine, I’d agree with a simultaneous order of AoE.

3) Combat Effects / Last Words:
Agreed, as long as combat effects triggers even if the combat creature dies in the same battle. Because everything else would be a straight unneccessary and unintended nerf to things like Shedim Brute, Grim Guard etc.
Stuff like Kobold Warlord and Sagami Elder shouldn’t be able to target themselves in lethal combat. And yes, that means, Sagami Warrior dies in combat with a 5 attack creature. Sorry. (Nothing changed there, though)

TL;DR: the game shouldn’t make itself more complecated by unneccessarily unexpected behaviour. It’s a burden for every new player and nothing good comes of it. Therefore, I agree with Ramora.

#3

Thanks for the response. Let’s just dig in shall we.

  1. Regarding harvesting effects : With my proposed changes, both luduan and fortune hunter would trigger if they were both at the well to harvest. Ditto for two Luduans. Both would trigger. While I agree this isn’t necessarily ideal or intuitive, I see it as a corner case so rare as to not be concerned with it. I would rather create a system where Luduan + RandomCreature works intuitively as that is a far more common scenario. Even in the unintuitive double Luduan case, the system is biased to give the player more than they would expect rather than less, leading to feel good moments rather than feel bad moments. If this interaction proved to be overpowered (something I very much doubt) the numbers on the card can be tweaked to rebalance them after the proposed change.

  2. AoE damage effects: At present the options for shrine vs AOE are, “ETB Order Matters”, “Random Order”, and “Simultaneous”. Random order is non-intuitive, inconsistent, and feels bad. ETB order is non-intuitive and introduces memory problems. The simultaneous damage system is (to me at least) intuitive and doesn’t have any associated memory issues. And the thing is, AOE vs Shrine used to use the Simultaneous damage system and Shrine wasn’t over-powered. I’m totally ok with having a shrine with 1 life tank a firestorm. If it proves to be over powered, which is very unlikely as this was the old interaction and it wasn’t broken in the old metas, then the numbers can be adjusted to balance the card.

  3. Concerning Groundshaker vs Fodder: In the current game, the players tie. In the current game, all abilities must finish resolving before the game checks to see who wins. Whether this is ideal can be left to be discussed at another time. I don’t believe the question is directly related to my proposed changes.

  4. Concerning order of simultaneous triggers : The more general question of how to resolve triggers that go off at the same time is, I believe, still open. For example, what should happen if you have an Oakling and a village elder that die to the same effect, which ability should resolve first? Fortunately, the order of most simultaneous triggers doesn’t matter. But it sometimes does though so we need a good solution. In the case of simultaneous triggers, for lack of a better idea, I think the current “ETB order matters” system should be used. If you have a better idea that let’s us order the triggers in a more reasonable way, please share.

  5. Concerning Hermit and Farmboy : As per my rules for combat, I think a similar system should be adopted for last words. Hermit and farmboy should both die at the same time and be removed from the board before hermit’s ability resolves. You actually offered this sollution yourself.

Please repeat any questions that I missed and feel free to ask more questions. I look forward to your response if you wish to.

#4

I’d say this is counterintuitive in either case. The card says “everytime this creature harvests”, which implies - as you only get 1 faeria - that only one Luduan (out of two adjacent to the same well) would trigger. Same for 1 Luduan, 1 Fortune Hunter at the same well: You should only get one effect as only one faeria is gained.
Therefore, I’d propose a priority system regarding the harvesting question. As long as there’s only one harvest creature that needs to harvest by itself (important difference to Bloodstone Spire for example!), this creature should do priority harvesting. If there’s more than one, either a fixed system is needed or the player might even be given the choice. (Like: “Flag a priority harvesting creature”)

I’m pretty sure this would be “abused”. Luduan’s effect can be quite powerful already. If you can have 3 Luduan’s triggering from the same well, you also only need to control one enemy Well. if you manage to do so, this can snowball very quickly and become pretty problematic. I imagine, people would build decks around this quite soon, if you introduced your system. :disappointed_relieved:

  1. Considering Shrine wasn’t op before the system was changed, this seems a small sacrifice to prevent unexpected stuff happening.

  2. Oakling and Village Elder is indeed an interesting case, as it doesn’t involve the question whether a dead creature would come back to life.

  • Regarding creatures death involved, if something is triggered simultaneously, the creatured flagged as “dead” should NOT be a valid target for any simultaneously triggered buff.

  • Oakling, Village Elder (in case of an empty hand when both effects trigger): I say, go for the simultaneous option, even in this case. Hence, Oakling should take the card drawn by Village Elder into account for valid targets.I take consistency over strategy in that (rare) case. (Yes, the more strategic friendly variant would be to leave exactly one card in your hand to be buffed by Oakling. But then again: This works in pretty much every case besides Village Elder?)

  • Edit: Talking to a friend, he’d consider card draw an effect on his own. Hence, a card is drawn the same time as the buff is applied. --> The card draw has to be finished first, therefore the new card would not be considered a valid target. Guess I can see both options here. :grin:

  1. Agreed.
#5

  1. Regarding luduan vs Fortune Hunter - the problem with a priority system is that it is both complicated and isn’t intuitive. For example, if I have a luduan and a hunter next to the same well, which has higher priority? Any priority system is going to lead to feel bads where the player would rather have gotten the other effect and was never given the option. And if you give players the option then you will need to come up with a clever UI solution and it only adds to the complexity of the game. I’d prefer a simple system that gives players more than they expect, in the rare cases where you have a luduan and hunter next to the wells, rather than a system that gives players less or something different then they expect. While this would be a significant buff for luduan and hunter, they aren’t top tier cards right now anyway and they can be rebalanced taking the interaction into account. Clear game mechanics matter more than the balance of any individual cards as individual cards can all be balanced later around the mechanics.

  2. Ordering of simultaneous triggers - Once again, unless there is a good way to solve this, I think an ETB order matters system is serviceable. So if Oakling and Elder die at the same time, then whichever was played first will resolve first. Its honestly such a small corner case that I doubt it matters.

#6

I have a question about what you said : if order of events is currently sequential in ETB order, does that mean it should be dealt to the first creature, then resolve its death (be it last words or any effect triggering at death), then dealt to the next creature, resolve its death and so on ?

I don’t have problem with ETB order (I’m a former DoC player, I’m used to it), as long as it’s mentioned somewhere (why not in tutorial ?). It’s not that hard to remember in which order creatures entered the board, except when there are 10s of them, and it creates some strategic elements (for instance, you play a small creature next to a Bone Collector before the collector, so that an AoE will not kill the collector).

This is fine as long as death effects happen at the time of death, and not after damage has been dealt to all creatures.
I second your statement about Combat abilities which should work in the same way.

I support anything that introduce strategy and skill (here it’s memory ^^), and I’m against things that would reduce them. Not to mention by dealing simultaneous damage, your Shrine will make a crazy job at protecting swarms of creatures.

Well, at least that’s my opinion. I don’t like seeing a creature dying when it has more than 0 HP as well, and it’s part of the reason why some cards, which would be interesting and playable without that, don’t see much play.

#7

Ramora sounds like a MtG player…? :wink:

Anyhow, I agree on his points. The game is still somewhat messy mechanically and needs some polish.

Should creatures be able to get buffed before they die?
Definitely not. Just do it the MtG way and put state based effects into the game (a simple order should do the job).

Should a Shrine at 1 take all damage from a Firestorm?
Probably not, but he already pinned it. Polish the game until it’s completely solid and then start balancing it. The Devs should know that, though. Don’t care about rare occasions yet, you can simply change the cards later, if needed.

What if 2+ Creatures are collecting at the same well?
Well (harhar), just change the Luduan / Hunter to “if this is next to a well that gets collected” and there won’t be any problems. In the (very unlikely) case that they will dominate, adjust the cards. Simple as that. Get the mechanics of the game right and if you have to change cards completely, then do it!

What comes first, card draw or the buff?
Again, MtG is your example. Add layers to the game (like already mentioned above) and let the card draw happen before or after any buffs. You can control the whole game this way aslong as you keep the mechanics in mind when creating new cards.

Both Gods receiving lethal damage
And again and again, use the MtG way (well, the opposite way this time). Put the effects on a stack (put the active player’s effects on top of the stack, so that his damage will come first). This way the active player can kill the other player and doesn’t have to wonder why he was dead before the other player, even though he attacked first. Give priority to those who initiate the combat for a more direct play.

Seriously, MtG does work for years and has proven itself for 23 years now. There’s no shame in adopting a great system from another game, if this helps your own game.

Also, a few things I noticed lately…

  • If you got 2 Shrine out, they both will take the damage (there’s a topic about it)
  • If you get a King’s Faithful out of an UEvolution, it comes into play with Protection (why is that? Make Protection work like Gift)

Regarding Protection… the other effect is that Frogify takes away your protection, which I think shouldn’t be this way, but yeah, that depends on how you want it to work. Right now a Safeguard will give you the abilty of Protection, instead of just a bauble that is not connected to the creature, which I would prefer by a mile. To me that’s way more intuitive, too.

#8

About transform/Protection : it used to work in a Gift-like way. It’s now a state of the card, so it happens when the creature is transformed, as it’s part of the card, just like Haste (if you transform a creature with Haste into another creature with Haste, it’ll be able to move and attack, but if you transform it into another creature, it won’t). Both of these used to work as Gift, but they were changed (imo it’s better : Protection and Haste are part of the card value, it would be weird to take it from the creature when transforming).

#9

Yeah, but unlike Haste, Protection works different in that it creates the bubble only once, while haste stays active all the time (even though it doesn’t do anything). If Protection was like “reduce 1 damage whenever this gets damaged”, then it would deserve to be an ability, but as it is now, it just doesn’t fit and to me it’s not intuitive at all.

Protection as I understood and see it, is a bubble that absorbes all damage from a single source once. There’s just no ability there, but a bubble that grants you protection for a single time. Again, that’s no bug or whatsoever, but to me that’s no ability. That’s something you give to a creature, like a buff.

It’s like EEmbrace would give you a specific ability that says “this gets +2/+4” and that just doesn’t fit at all.

#10

Honestly, I always felt like Protection should have been a keyword action of some kind rather than a keyword ability. If it were up to me, all the current creatures with Protection would be formatted to say. “Gift - Gain protection.” where protection refers to the bubble itself. This would open up some interesting design space on cards that gain protection using other triggered abilities as well.

Regarding Layers for triggered abilities - Layers are just the type of complex ordering that is worth avoiding. Almost nobody understands the MTG layers, and for the most part, Wizards actively designs their cards to avoid the need to understand layers. I’m not at all confident that layers for ordering simultaneously triggered abilities is a better sollution than the relatively simple “ETB order matters” system that is currently in place.

Regarding Both gods receiving lethal damage. - I don’t think this question directly relates to the topic of the thread. At present, the game doesn’t even check for a winner/loser unless all abilities have resolved, and I think this is a defensible system, as it adds much less importance to the order of many triggers, and keeps the game easy to play and understand. Yes, your groundshaker did deal lethal to the opponent, but you also popped a fodder dealing lethal to yourself. The game is a draw. Both players died.

#11

[quote=“Ramora, post:10, topic:1488, full:true”]
Regarding Layers for triggered abilities - Layers are just the type of complex ordering that is worth avoiding. Almost nobody understands the MTG layers, and for the most part, Wizards actively designs their cards to avoid the need to understand layers. I’m not at all confident that layers for ordering simultaneously triggered abilities is a better sollution than the relatively simple “ETB order matters” system that is currently in place.[/quote]

Well, I know that not all the players are aware of the layers, but at tournament level (that’s what I did for 15+ years), people have been aware of it. The problem is not the system, the problem is, that normal players don’t know the full rules and if they would know them, it would be just fine.

I’m actually pretty sure that there are many people who don’t know how Faeria works when it comes to such things. The point is, it’s much easier and more clear if you have layers, instead of having to memorize all the creatures on the board. That doesn’t add anything but work to the game.

Also, Faeria doesn’t need as many layers as MtG has, because the Devs can avoid such things from scratch, while MtG could not. The comprehensive rules set grew over many years, it wasn’t something Richard had been thought of. He actually didn’t even realize that people could and would buy more packs to get specific cards multiple times (the restriction of 4 cards per deck was added later!).

Back to topic…
Layers make your game clean and if people have the option to get aware of it (a good tutorial), there won’t be any problems. Sure, it’s easy to say “it works with timestamps”, but all this adds is unnecessary bookkeeping that shouldn’t be part of a game like this.

#12

If a system is too complicated to be easily explained to players, then the problem is the system. I also don’t think your sollution to simultaneous triggers is at all comparable to layering.

In MTG Layers control how static effects interact. If your creature is a 2/2 but was turned into a 4/4 after being given +3/+3, layers let you figure out what the creatures power and toughness are supposed to be.

The problem we are trying to solve has nothing to do with static effects. We are trying to solve the problem of how to order simultaneous triggers. For example, if an oakling and an elder die at the same time, which last words ability happens first? Layers don’t help us here. Instead, your sollution seems to resemble that of a Priority Queue. Each ability has some unique priority and abilities are ordered according to what priority they have. This system could be implemented and work well but I see a significant problem with it. Any priority system is likely to feel arbitrary. For example, why should Elder have more priority than Oakling, or vice versa?

While I agree that the memory issues imposed by an “ETB order matters” system of ordering simultaneous triggers is not ideal, at least the system is easy to explain and mostly intuitive. The creatures played first have their abilities resolve first. I also don’t think the memory issues imposed here are all that large as the order of simultaneous triggers so rarely matters.

#13

I do see another problem with the Priority Queue system : pretty obviously, if you want to know what’s going to happen, you have to learn the list of priorities. Which also means putting it in the tutorial. For the moment, there may not have many abilities that would overlap, so it might be doable, but that would be troublesome on the long term.

Also, I can’t think of an example with the current set, but le’ts imagine a new creature is added with last words “heal your God by X” (not unreasonable to think that one will exist at some point, I’m pretty surprised it doesn’t already), and both this one and opponent’s Seifer’s Fodder die at the same time. Both being Last Words, a priority queue wouldn’t solve it. So the only ways to do it are : random (urgh), simultaneous (bad in many scenarios), and ETB (need to remember the order, but easy to define, and very precise : if Fodder was first, you loose, if it was second, you live, no guessing involved).

#14

@ Fox
No problem there, it works the way mentioned above. Depending on who is active, the active players stuff will act first. If the Fodder kills the other creature, the player will die before getting healed. If the “Healer” acts and kills the Fodder, it will heal before the damage comes through.

Yeah, people would need a tutorial about it, but that’s not different from now. If you are new, you have no clue why things are happening the way they do, so that’s not really an argument. It’s like saying “take out all the options from your TV, as it’s too complicated”, just because people are too lazy to RTFM…

Seriously, if people don’t want to learn the game, so be it, but that’s no reason to dumb down the game.

As for future cards, like I said, they need to keep their system in mind when creating new stuff, but they have to do this anyway, no matter what.

@ Ramora
True, it’s not about static effects. I used the word layers to avoid using the stack, to keep it as simple as possible. When I was talking about layers, I was reffering to a system that controls the timing of the effects that occur simultaneously (like the Stack in MtG). It doesn’t change anything from what I wrote, though.

So yeah, you would have a fixed order for the effects like (for example):

  1. drawing effects
  2. damage effects
  3. healing effects
  4. changing effects

You might even be able to ignore the “active player rule” this way, to keep it simple, but then draws are possible.

I really couldn’t care less for why something triggers before something else does when playing a fantasy game that needs rules to function well. This is no simulation, it’s a game. Also, why should a Last Words trigger of an older creature act first? This doesn’t make any sense either.

[quote=“Ramora, post:12, topic:1488”]
I also don’t think the memory issues imposed here are all that large as the order of simultaneous triggers so rarely matters.[/quote]
You can say that vice versa. :wink:

#15

@H8Man
“No problem there, it works the way mentioned above.”
I much prefer the current system in which end game is only checked immediately before a player regains priority. It makes some games tie but I think that its fair, and has the added benefit of making the order of simultaneous triggers matter less. From a flavor perspective, it makes sense as well. If you and I were dueling and you made a terrible attack that left you open but successfully stabbed me, and I proceed to stab you back, we both lost the fight. You didn’t win just because you engaged the mutual suicide.

“As for future cards, like I said, they need to keep their system in mind when creating new stuff, but they have to do this anyway, no matter what.”
They don’t have to though. With an “ETB order matters” system, it can be impllimented and no matter what effects they make, they don’t need to change the system. With a priority system, every time they make a new effect, they would have to update the priority system, and every player would have to learn the new system. Why bother implementing a system that will require frequent updates when you don’t have too?

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