I feel the new expansion did more harm then good


#1

This is my first post here and I dont normally post in game forums like this. I like to stay in the silent majority but I feel that this needs to be said. I hope this is the correct location for this topic and if not feel free to move it.

I’ve played since Faeria released on steam and pre-ordered the adventure pouch. I love the game but the new set has utterly ruined the game for me. I simply cant play multiplayer now at all. I never played top tier decks and never wanted to. My favorite deck is a Monored midrange combat burn deck. Go up the side pop Axe grinders on their well and drop Bloodstone sprites and A obelisk or two with a singer or two and just burn them down and finish with a Warleader to their face. I always had casual for when my Ranked level got to high and I was fine with that. But now I cant even play multiplayer because out of the last 10 decks 7 were three wishes and 2 were Swallow control. There is literally nothing I can do. Every deck I make is utterly destroyed. I can get them down to less than five life but then their whales or wishes end it for me.

I hate Rush decks and don’t want to play them because I think they are cheep but I could always handle them by just drawing the game out longer and burning them down. Before the release I could power through Three Wishes with some luck and I’ve even won games after they got a wish off. Now the control game is so powerful there is nothing I can do I hate rush and I hate control and that seems to be the only things possible right now.

Where the developers really screwed up is giving away free mythic’s every 10 adventure pouch points. Everyone has them now which means everyone can add in Swallow cards. Since release I have seen them in 90% of decks. This utterly ruins the point of TCG’s with random packs. I liked casual because most people were on my level. I don’t have a lot of good cards and I’m level 115 basically all the staples of good decks I simply don’t have. This meant that if I were to build a deck it would not be perfect and that meant everyone else is in the same boat. By handing out the cards to everyone the devs killed whole play styles.

The worst part is because the whole expansion is multicolor focused I haven’t seen ANYTHING that can help me. What few things that are interesting and could spice up my deck are all wildmana cards that require to much land investment. Perfect for control players but useless for any deck that’s not trying to stall and draw the game out. To play my deck I have to play like a rush player just making a pit stop at their well which means I normally never have two or three non plains.

I would like to know the thought patterns behind these new cards and why they were made. As I understood it Three Wishes was always a top tier deck. If that was the case why would the devs make more cards that only serve to make the deck even more powerful but nothing to really help mono color decks counter their new toys? Swallow lets them remove absolutely any real threat and with the way they make lands even the crystal will be placed far away from them so if you do mange to break it or wait for it to break you have to spend a lot of time to get the monster back. Even worse than the crystal and the whale is the yakapult and the frog thrower. Each one generates a ton of advantage and ruins going small. As the frog thrower can kill anything small AND gives them a frog with jump to break land blocks, harvest Faeira, or kill another small creature. So going big and going small are both out of the question. Control just has so many toys that I cant figure out what to possibly build to fight them. I’ve started to just auto forfeit once its clear that they are going Three Wishes or Swallow control because no deck I can make stands against it.


#2

I understand perfectly your feeling mate. I experienced the same with my old Blue Jump deck. It was a tier 1 deck… once. Now just unplayable.
For what I have seen and experimented then, I believe that this expansion has added more variety breaking many previous meta-builds, luckily adding a bigger amount of multicolored ones. But I agree with you that at the moment the new cards are massive impact in any matches. Also you need to incorporate them in your deck to maintain it competitive, adding in particular some defensive cards (punishment and emperor command are in all my decks in practice).

Frog Tosser in particular is a pain if opponent adds lands fast. So for my new blue deck it s a MUST HAVE card. But I m really very sure they will nerf it very very soon, perhaps also with next patch. That new card has already received so many alarming reviews by all the more experienced players in the game and streamers, that is just a matter of days.

Whale are also a strong addition, anyway they are slow to be played (in general decks). You need removal for them for sure. I frogify them instantly, no matter what they have swallowed. And I normally win doing so or at least I get till 1 turn to win.

For the yakkapult they are ranged units with a precise limitation to summon frog. They need a free land near the target. So they can be a little annoying but not so game breaking in my matches (but i have much mobility and creatures like frogs i can sacrifice easily in general).

What I want to say is I have had to modify my deck and strategies to consider the actual wider game.

For the mythic cards they can be claimed ONLY if they already have the equivalent normal card from the islands quests. From today emperor’s quest I got +10 points but no mythic card because I have already got the max size based on the corresponding normal cards collected. So I have to wait next Monday to get the new island and to complete the new coop missions.

I truly think devs are going to re-balance quickly some new cards as they have enough feedback and matches data to work on. This is a major update of the game, so tuning is required and inevitable. But it also means they are investing time and resources to extend and improve the game itself. I think we can give them some weeks to figure it out while we can try different decks and colors combination :stuck_out_tongue:


#3

I know about the island limitation but what I meant was that I had all the cards that I listed I had problems with the second the first island came out. There was no need to open packs to get them and I only had around 200 points at that point with moderate playing. The problem is that no one needs to open packs to get them. Take Three Wishes. You have to crack packs to get them or spend 240 shards to craft a play set. That limited the number of people that played them and at least in casual they were broken disjointed decks that weren’t optimized because they were missing other cards that work in the deck. By giving the cards away it means everyone or nearly everyone has them with no investment. With how strong wild mana decks are right now they were basically given a fully functioning deck for nothing. While I spent quite a bit of shards and luck to make my deck. That’s what feels like the biggest stab in the back.

As for the OPness of the cards if they balance them than things should level out again. You mentioned frogify. Its a great card I agree but I primarily play Red and a little of Yellow and Green. Red has nothing against whales that I know of. Maybe a Hellfire but that already puts me a mana down and if they have a boardstate from say Frog throwers it wont work. I’ve also killed whales only for them to drop a crystal and swallow my creature AGAIN which at that point I’ve lost so much advantage its game over.

“Also you need to incorporate them in your deck to maintain it competitive”

No one should ever have to say those words when a new expansion comes out for a card game. Its the death of the game. That kind of power creep ruins it because people like me who have no interest in high level constructed or dont want to make drastic alterations to how our decks play will leave. I like how my deck plays and I’ve never had a problem until now because I always had casual. Now that I dont have casual I’m going to leave once I finish up the single player content because the game wont have anything for me.

I dont know what it will take for them to balance it because like you said it seems they built the expansion to shake up high level play which is great but it leaves low level play in the gutter.


#4

Same for me. I’m still below level 100, so I don’t have enough cards to build a deck that utilizes the new cards. I have only mono green, mono red, gy sacrifice decks, and none of them fits in current meta. I understand that new cards should be somewhat strong, but they shouldn’t kill one-colored decks. Well, hopefully the devs bring the right changes on Tuesday (as they announced) so I can keep playing my green and red decks.


#5

You are right, I’m agree. What I mean in this case is devs added strong cards and they are free for all (as we have 9.5 k gold for second island and following), so we have to take care of them in a way or an other, incorporating them or adding counter measures.

For red if I had to built mine right now I ll use something combining: seifer’s wrath, flame burst, gift of steal, firebomb (-4 to creatures and structures), emperor command (-3 to structures), crystal flower (use it on his far collector or big creatures or even willow and he will suffer slow deployment). Red has the biggest damage output (through combat and spell), so whales can’t hardly stand for more than 2 rounds alive. Big creatures don’t have benefits for your deck right now with the swallow presence everywhere, while combat-taunt can be quite versatile for your matches. Soon there will be tweaks too, so don’t demoralize guys :slight_smile:


#6

I’m not gonna duck out yet for a while. At least not until the full expansion is out and they have made adjustments.

As for combining I do do that. I have 3 Flame Spitters 3 Seifers Wraths, and 3 Flame Bursts. I dont own any Emperors Commands. I love Flame Spitters because they leave me with a collector or basically a Wrath. They were great against Farm Boy’s and Treasure Hunters. It was always satisfying to pop them the turn they dropped. But I may swap them out for Firebomb because control is going big and fat now. I took out my Gift of Steals because of Swallow. It requires to much set up needing a creature there and if I boosted anything to be a threat if it lived it got Swallowed.

All this also forgets the biggest problem. Card advantage. That’s a lot of card investment and puts me at a huge disadvantage in a deck that has trouble drawing cards.

I think the single best change they can make to swallow is to make it so that you can only swallow things right next to the thing swallowing. That makes it so that combat decks can deal with it instead of having a whale on the other side of the board swallow your biggest thing then fly down to smack you in the face. It also lets hard removal stay hard removal and turns swallow into what its supposed to be temporary. Make it so the Crystal doesn’t damage itself every turn and its good to go. It makes sense thematically as well. You cant swallow what you cant touch. Forcing the whale to be right next to it. I would also make it so the flower spawns on the hex of the creature it swallows.


#7

I don’t really know why they wanted more multicolor decks before, I thought there were plenty of them out there. Mono decks have a place. Now mono is really hurting.

I have been wondering if a change to wild cards could really help.
Make it so the entire wild card cost must be filled by a single color.
That’d still be after subtracting all the required lands. So a 4L 4W would need either 8L or [4L + 4 of one other color].
That wouldn’t fix the issues immediately, but it could make balancing easier. It would boost mono decks - although unfortunately the boost might be too much.

I mostly play 3W and weird/fun decks - have done so since I started playing. Getting to god was really easy this time. (Although it helps if you know the easy times of day to rank up :slight_smile:). IMHO 3W still has a hard time vs rush (although frog tosser makes a huge difference).

I haven’t found Yakkapult to be a problem, although I have frogged it a few times - but it seems balanced IMHO - and fun.

I totally agree, and I think many people would feel that way.

That actually sounds like a very good idea, strategically. It would also be far more balanced for the current two cards. And although not everything has to be about board placement, we do need more focus on it IMHO.

You could also just do it on a per-card basis. “Gift - Swallow an adjacent creature”.


#8

I’m sure they’ll be tweaks coming over the next few months, but I feel I know where people are coming from and I share many of the concerns mentioned.

I too, am less than level 100, and so very limited on the kinds of deck I can build. I play mostly mono decks, mostly because I lack the standard multi colour epic cards that are used in them. I have no Soul Eaters, no Crackthorns, no Wishes, and only one Scourgeflame Spectre, and one Twin Soul. In fact, the only epics I have a playset of are Gnats, Luduan, and Flowersilk Faerie. My favourite deck that incorporates these is a Luduan deck, which I feel really needs to be mono-blue.

I do have a sizable stock-pile of memoria to begin to craft, but I held off until after the expansion. I was going to craft a set of Soul Eaters for my sac deck, but if they are just going to get swallowed I might as well put in some Oversky cards I already own; Crystals or some land acceleration and whales, despite the lack of sac synergy, and lack of synergy makes me sad.

Low level play with imperfect decks does not bother me, as I can experiment and have fun, but as Oversky cards filter through and even low level players have full sets of cards that can over-power what I can build, I worry I might not have the same fun in the future.

As for Whale, Crystal and Frog, I hear players saying a lot “We haven’t got the whole Oversky set, they’ll be counters we just haven’t seen yet”. Well that may be true, but that’s effectively admitting that decks prior to the release of Oversky will simply not be able to compete anymore.

Saying all this, the devs did seem to create a good balance in the game prior to Oversky’s release, I’m optimistic in their ability to put it right. I was concerned though, when I read they didn’t want to nerf the new cards because players would be disappointed that their new card isn’t as strong, especially since the cards couldn’t be disenchanted. Fair enough, but that’ll be nothing compared to the disappointment if whole decks, that players have been tweaking for months, are no longer viable and can only be disenchanted for a fraction of their cost.


#9

I really like your points guys.
For sure now the best thing to do is to save memoria until all Oversky is released and new meta are clearly identified. Crafting a card that we think is strong but will be penalizing as synergy later, would be sad and frustrating.

If you just want to play and have fun with a normal win rate (50-60% progressing constantly with win streak and first win of the day bonuses) mono color are still viable when modified with the new neutral cards of Oversky. Most of mono-color used some neutral card before, now it’s just a change of cards for many decks.

Blue jump with flowers and punishment is quite strong. Adding also Frog Tosser would bring you in God rank too within the next season reset. I m using that and constantly progressing till league 4 right now in 10 days. But I have also faced tough opponents with red variations (+ scourge flame + whales) directly from God league, and green too (+ crystal + whales). Of course Green and Blue can also easily add Frog Tosser (quite strong as could be Crackthorn in the previous meta).

We could say that the game has evolved and now we have to find our new favorite decks. Anyway compared to a month ago when i started to play, the game offers much more options to me. I have spent around 15-20k gold in mission packs that now I won’t suggest to anyone, while islands are still coming.

Also in my experience as f2p guy that has just bought the base adventure pouch to get the mythical cards hoping to disenchant them all in a near future that could also never come (i realized that too late :stuck_out_tongue:), now the game is a little more friendly for new players and f2p and I’m going to explain why. Building a “competitive” deck to rank up in the leagues before, a new players had to invest a lot of memoria to craft very strong cards for the old very strong meta decks (just blue jump was quite affordable without Aurora and Phantasm). Now you can get stronger cards for free (through gold) from islands. A new player doesn’t have a preferred deck of course. He builds what seems to be the most funny combination or take suggestions by friends. So he is going to build his first deck with much more stronger and affordable cards than mine.

For the memoria problem in the end, don’t worry guys, it’s just a matter of time then you ll find some mythic card epic or even legendary in the battle chests and you ll complete your favorite decks at once :wink: Anyway if you want to boost a bit your collection, supporting this devs seems quite a good option cause actually I really like their game design and the ideas they are introducing right now (tuning of the expansion is still required anyway) :slight_smile:


#10

You are right that this is a boon for new players, which is of course a good thing, but that has its downside as well. As an existing player, I was looking forward to finally making my sac deck and some of my mono-blue decks competitive through crafting the cards I was missing. There is a danger that there is not much point now - which is disappointing. I like how these decks play, they are not perfect, but I don’t want to start pulling out 6+ cards I didn’t originally intend in order to put in Oversky cards that I absolutely need to counter dominating Oversky cards. I may as well build a new deck around these new cards as my old deck losses synergy.

It’s important that new players feel they can compete, but on the other hand, starting out with a small collection of poor cards and gradually building it up so you can make better decks is a large part of the appeal of games like this imho, and what makes them enjoyable. If everyone gets the top cards very easily, some players may lose interest. I’ve read articles on game design theory discussing how its just as important to not reward players too quickly, as well as too slowly. Just my thoughts.


#11

Great suggestions there! I hope the devs get to read this.


#12

Yep maybe great idea i’m agree.

Or remove charge 3.

But please think about a change cause here there is really too much swallow !


#13

Facing a three wish deck with Whales, Flowers and frog tossers is a slow and depressing match.

I just started playing and it’s baffeling how those mechanics overshadow everything else I’ve discovered about this game. It feels unfair.


#14

Hi Sendokami,

actually I am around level 260 right now and really have the same feeling that Oversky is madness. The new cards are just way too strong in my opinion.

However, I do not agree that they simply “give away” all the Oversky cards since each island pack (execept for the first one) costs around 9500 Gold if you did not ordered the adventure pouch beforehand. So to unlock one island pack one needs more than a week of playing.

The sad thing is that I did not even managed to come to that cost limit for the second island pack (whales and frog tossers) because I was absent over the last week. This is why I can not play any ranked games any more since all my decks which I used to play before the expansion came out are getting utterly destroyed right now. Getting destroyed because you are lacking the cards that (at least is seems so) everyone has and getting defeated by players which apparently did not play very well but still managed to win because of these cards feels very bad.

Right now I am not able to keep up which the new cards coming out since if I can afford the first island pack which costs me gold the next ones are already released. Therefore I should use at least one month of playing only to get all islands unlocked before I can compete again. However, this would be more like work to me but I do not want to work if I play a game. I want to have fun. But you do not have fun either if you loose a lot of games because you are lacking the new cards. This is why I really think about stopping to play this game although I liked it before the expansion was out because I do not want to invest the “pure month of grinding”.

Think about all the new players: Forcing them to spend around 40k gold into the oversky islands before they can get into multiplayer in a multiplayer orientated game is not right. Furthermore, one must consider that this gold is not invested in any card packs (40 of them) which are vital at the beginning of the game. I my opinion the new expansion increases the threshold for new player by a lot.

Because of the mentioned problems (I do not have whales, frog tossers) I am running a green yellow semi-rush deck which consists mostly of mid-size creatures (the elementals, sagami warrior, keldran soldier, intrepid explorers) along with cheaper buffs/debuffs (tiki caretaker, ruunins command, emperors command) and some removal from yellow (mostly soul drain). Finally, crystal flower is also in the deck. The idea behind this kind of deck is that it is not worth or at least not so beneficial to swallow mid-size creatures. Because of the lower cost you generally also have more of them around so that if some gets crystaled you can get it free with another creature lingering around. Furthermore, because you are rushing your lands straight up to your opponent he has mostly no good spot for crystal flower. The buffs and removals should help to control the board. Big creatures may not be such a big deal because of last nightmare and the crystal flowers. The elementals and the intrepid explorers help you to encircle the opponents land so that he can not push his special lands too much.


#15

+1 Also, as a lore nerd, another problem I have with the multi-color state of the game is thematic. I liked the distinctiveness of each color, and enjoyed imagining the different elements rivaling each other, or occasionally teaming up into a dual force. But to have everyone play now rainbow decks just dilutes the whole feel of the world, IMO. Why is one rainbow-avatar fighting another? There are no clues in the lore now as to your identity. The world feels like it has completely evaporated.

I wish they had come out with a 5th color instead (white-ice, perhaps).


#16

I didn’t know that. That makes the situation even worse. They really should of thought about how this was going to affect the players. At this point I don’t even know what they could do about it since taking away peoples cards would just upset the community even more. It seems like a terrible decision that left them backed into a corner with no reasonable method of escape.

I do my best to sell the game because this is one of the few CTCG’s that I like. Hearthstone and its clones with limited permanents, ability to just ignore monsters and all around restrictions on everything are terrible to me. I don’t want to lose this game and if new players jump in and get roflstomped because not even casual is safe they wont stay.

If they wont take the cards back and make people get packs than casual needs its own hidden ranking system. I would even go so far as to impalement a system that forces deck variation. If you just played a Three Wishes Deck you one play one again for a game or two.


#17

From what I have seen the new cards are slowly producing new constructed decks also with more variations than before where there were just 4-5 strong meta. For sure now you can use whales to bring your deck to an upper floor than the others, I agree with you. Anyway playing whales around God league in the last weeks, I have seen several solutions to deal against (my) whales, and also if I m still thinking whales are OP right now I have to say there are solutions to deal with them and even win without them (just seen an impressive g-y sac with death-touch and taunt)

I’m quite sure whales will be nerfed in a close future (and 3-wishes cards something like removed). Anyway the new combinations you can build now, including the whales in general, are more and stronger than before.

One week ago you couldn’t even think about a blue jump (with whales) now with the new blue creatures released this week I got the gap to have a consistent deck to rank to God and it’s pretty funny to play.

The next week there will be interesting addictions for red (defensive and offensive), so I think we have to wait the last 2 islands to understand the complete re-balancing introduced with this expansion.

So we could say that this release among weeks made chaos in every deck and meta (and ranked matches) cause it was a little bit at the time, a kind of incomplete set of cards to build new decks with complete synergies.

The alternative could be releasing the full content at September, but:

  • players would have had to spend 40k gold at once
  • many cards would have been totally unbalanced all together (example frog tosser)
  • players would have had a much bigger impact, than a progressive familiarization with the new mechanic and creatures

In the end they are releasing a very big expansion for the game (and it is a very good thing after all), almost for free because just some players paid (and will pay) to have all the content already unlocked (covering the present and future development cost) and the others can simply playing to stock enough gold to unlock everything for free in some weeks (and it’s very important too, because there aren’t thousands and thousands of players at the moment).

For sure the game will need a lot of tweaks in the next weeks, but I m quite confident in this development team. I think they will find (slowly :stuck_out_tongue: ) a fine tuning for it :slight_smile:


#18

I don’t think the problem is the card design.I actually really liked the swallow mechanism because it could produce a lot of back and forth situation of the game.Compared to a straight forward removal.Swallow is actually more interesting and strategic.because players would have to consider what happens AFTER the creature gets out.That’s what board card game needs: planning and positioning.
however the whale not being swallowed itself ,frogify not returning friendly creature.and obviously the 6/8 body.makes the confrontation part of the game go away.
Iit easy to chain whale since once you manage to drop a whale,with +1 and double collection you get 6 faeria right away and you can just use another ,even better if you 3 wished one.
Right now ,there are 2 best ways to deal with the whales without using them yourself:
1,.Rush,try to win before they can whale.actually they often come back after 8 lands.
2,Divine guardian burn.Not being swallowed at all.
Making the ladder more and more like a world boss fight is not healthy for this game imho.
So what went wrong if not the design,plain and simple:the stats.
Gwendel had a good point in the reply that maybe making the old decks obsolete is not a good thing.
Despite the small card pool "old“” faeira is like naturally balanced and beautiful. Almost every deck is fun to play and competitive at some level .what we need is to smoothly embed the new cards in most of the old decks and come up with a few new ones.
It’s most likely that there is gonna be a nerf coming Hope the devs will not overdo it .
The game is about faeria.Starved deck can not put creature on the board.Even one more faeria cost would significantly decrease the value of the whales.
Maybe we need smaller more flexible whales.


#19

I mean in general I’m totally fine with the fact that you have to spend some gold to get the Oversky cards. Actually this is the same with the chests. What causes the trouble here is that a lot of the oversky cards are so much stronger compared to the standard cards from the chests which is not right in my humble opinion. This forces one to invest the 40k gold. I don’t mind if some cards are a bit stronger like it was before (Sagami Warrior as an example for a slightly overvalue card) but for the oversky cards this is definitely too much.

My guess is that the game designers totally overestimate the role of the special lands as a “cost”. To proof this here is the official statement about the “Wild Growth Nerf” which really upset me: “With even more methods of land ramp being added in the Oversky starting tomorrow, it’s no longer okay or necessary for this card to remain in its previous form.”
(source: https://www.faeria.com/news/announcements/181-patch-notes-august-21-2017)

However, the special lands are not a “cost” in classical sense since you have to invest only once into the special lands. They do not disappear if you play a creature and therefore, special lands are not costs. Therefore, it is right in my opinion that cards with high land requirements are stronger than others but not too much. I do not know who said it but someone mentioned that to get a bunch of special lands is not hard at all and I totally agree with this.


#20

You are absolutely right! The lands requirement is time shifting. Player is gonna stack lands just progressing in the match. An high lands requirement just means that the creature is too strong for early game. The “land ramp” is simply too fast for the opponent to be effective aggressive while your defense is weaker (you are spending mana for lands).

Much worst situation with 3 wishes + land ramp: he heals from your approximate aggression, cloning your middle/end game creatures discounted. Everything played now has double value for him in practice and the game is decided at the time of first wish played…