My Feedback #2

Alternatively, the team could maintain their current standards and employ more staff to work on premium stuff. I hate compromise!

I guess if you can’t actually play new games the way they’re meant to look, it might not be so apparent. Most new games (not all, by any means, but certainly most) these days run just fine with full settings on a lower end of mid-range PC though, so I would expect more people to be up to date with graphical trends and not playing catch-up. I’ve just bitten the bullet to upgrade my 9 year old PC, even though it still runs most stuff on full, but it’s actually started to die of old age before games have really caught up to force my hand.

Maybe it’s just a matter of taste though. As an example, I still really enjoy Civilization II and I think it could come out tomorrow and look better than the average indy TBS, but I installed Civ III, eagerly anticipating a glorious marathon game with the vicious resource management that it brought to the table, but had to immediately uninstall when I booted it and it crashed my brain with its ugliness. I decided I’d just have to suck it up and play the slightly worse Civ IV instead, but that also proved too unbearably ugly and I just had to give up and put the whole thing on hold until the Civ VI makes it into a Humble Bundle.

[quote=“Amaznazaz, post:21, topic:6286”]
Alternatively, the team could maintain their current standards and employ more staff to work on premium stuff. I hate compromise!
[/quote]I probably worded that wrong - by “free players get worse cosmetics” I meant strictly relative to paid players. The level of free player cosmetics could still be better (or worse, or the same) than it is now.

[quote=“Amaznazaz, post:21, topic:6286”]
Most new games (not all, by any means, but certainly most) these days run just fine with full settings on a lower end of mid-range PC though, so I would expect more people to be up to date with graphical trends and not playing catch-up.
[/quote]Depends on the game, and the developer’s mindset. IMHO they should avoid setting hard limits on top end settings when unnecessary. For example, for open world games draw distance doesn’t really need to be capped, and could be the whole world, and terrain detail can keep ramping up till the whole world is at maximum detail, giving a poly count that could reach trillions. Particle effects like fires can just keep ramping up the particle count (if they’re designed to be scalable effects so transparency might increase).

IMHO max settings are more often decided by consumer psychology - some people are put off buying a game they can’t run at max, regardless of how good it currently runs. It’s annoying.


[quote=“Galileus, post:20, topic:6286, full:true”]
I’m sorry, but I ain’t going to point out differences in custom premium equipment in PvE game and premium WHOLE VFX OF THE GAME. [/quote]Where did I suggest that? For both, most of the VFX is constant (world, UI, and much of the rest) and the art is simply amended to improve things. - You do want artists who know how to do this efficiently, though.

Ok, I didn’t explain “most RPGs scale it in some manner”. I guess we might have a different idea of what is meant by art scaling - I didn’t hear the term before and I don’t see it on google, so I just interpreted it myself. I’m just talking (here) about modifying the base - eg making a sword shinier with a fancier hilt, adding glows and particle effects, etc. Adding more decorations to textures, like gold seams or emblems. Basic color/hue adjustment. Things like that.

RPGs like WoW & Skyrim use this lots, as do many non-RTS games.

[quote=“Galileus, post:20, topic:6286, full:true”] … “my personal experience said you’re not important!”, or any other such nonsense.

This is stretching it way too far. At this point I cannot believe you are honest in this discussion, and as such, I have no interest in it’s continuation.

Do enjoy your bubble.
[/quote]That’s not a fair summary IMHO. I said my frequent duration participation in numerous discussions on this including a real-life workshop (and, I’ll add now, discussions with multiple devs) on the issue has shown that most people are more put off (including purchasing habits) by paid game-affecting stuff than they are about paid cosmetics. I never said your opinion was unimportant - I merely said it was, from my experience above, a minority opinion - which is an important detail in this discussion when evaluating whether something makes sense financially. There was no intent to insult or demean. And if you disagree with that, just tell us why you think I’m wrong.

I apologize if I assumed that you were “annoyed by your opponent’s actions” - it sounded like you meant that from above but rereading it you don’t explicitly state it. I want this to be a civil discussion.

I’m sure you know there are many people who have issues with game-affecting payments, so I don’t know what makes you think I’m not being honest in this discussion.

This is why I do call you dishonest. You cherry pick your arguments, meaning I have to repeat them over and over, because you keep moving the goalpost so that yours can stand one post longer. You still did not back out from comparing your model to PoE, because that comparison is good for you and you will just shift goals around to make it stay, no matter how different they are - and how easy it was to draw a proper comparison straight away. You disregarded that.

The whole thing about games scaling it’s art? They don’t. Because why would they. Adding something is just a process of art, you don’t cut it and scale it to fit in few premium grades. Games that do have bad models and shitty stores. Yet you just drop big names so you can boost your credentials. As well as keep reminding me I’m in minority from your experience, that keeps on growing.

Sorry to say, I prefer a heated discussion in which I don’t feel like talking to a wall.

[quote=“Galileus, post:23, topic:6286”]You cherry pick your arguments, meaning I have to repeat them over and over, because you keep moving the goalpost so that yours can stand one post longer.[/quote]Can you cite specifics? What “goalposts” are shifting? (and, what exactly do you mean by goalposts?). And what arguments am I ignoring by cherry picking?

I do see that “basic” could be misinterpreted in my original idea - I’ll admit it does kinda read that way, but I never intended to imply it was less than what you’ve got now. Apologies that that was less than clear. (Also, the “red arrows” was just me misremembering firestorm meteors as hellfire arrows).

[quote=“Galileus, post:23, topic:6286”]You still did not back out from comparing your model to PoE[/quote]I’m not planning on backing out. I believe it’s a good comparison. I gave reasons why I believe it. I admit it’s a very different game, with a very different graphical engine, and they have far more content than Faeria. But I don’t see why the same principle doesn’t apply. People who can access the entire game world using all the gear are still happy to pay for cosmetic changes.

The reasons you give for it being a bad comparison are things I disagree with:

  • You can get all fancy gear. I didn’t respond to this before, but I’m saying you can get all fancy cards. Isn’t that similar?
  • You “get it thrown in yer face” I don’t see this. I don’t see people complaining about this happening either. I see the opposite. And I’m routinely involved in this issue.
  • It’s the whole VFX of the game vs only some of PoE/H&S. I explained why I disagreed: “For both, most of the VFX is constant … the art is simply amended to improve things”.
  • It’s stretching things. Rebuttal just after the last quote.

So why wouldn’t I keep believing it.

[quote=“Galileus, post:23, topic:6286”]because that comparison is good for you and you will just shift goals around to make it stay, no matter how different they are - and how easy it was to draw a proper comparison straight away. You disregarded that.
[/quote]Can you show me a contradiction - rather than a clarification? Is that what you mean by “shifting goals”?

And, even if I did decide to change the idea (which I haven’t yet) based on the discussion, that’s actually part of the reason for having a discussion. It’s not a bad thing.

[quote=“Galileus, post:23, topic:6286”]
The whole thing about games scaling it’s art? They don’t. Because why would they. Adding something is just a process of art, you don’t cut it and scale it to fit in few premium grades. Games that do have bad models and shitty stores. Yet you just drop big names so you can boost your credentials.[/quote]Are you claiming those games (WoW, Skyrim) don’t reuse and amend content? Or are you claiming they have bad models? Also, is there a difference between “dropping big names” and providing examples?

You used yourself as an example of why it was a bad idea. Am I supposed to not counter that because it might be taken as an insult? Or would you prefer I worded it that “I believe the majority of people are more concerned with …”, rather than directly saying you’re in the minority. That’s pretty much the same but I guess it’s more civil.

Are you claiming you’re not in the minority? Are you claiming to have experience to know whether or not you are?

Are you a developer or part of the games industry? I am both.

If that’s so, then I’ll say this:

  • You need to accept that people sometimes don’t write things perfectly the first time and that they have the right to clarify them.
  • You need to not run from the debate by saying “I will not respond to X”.
  • You need to read the words written on the forum rather than the ones formed in your own head.
  • And if you really prefer (or don’t mind) a heated discussion you might want to appear less sensitive.

I prefer civil discussions primarily because mods take down heated ones. Also, people forget to actually make arguments when it’s too heated.

1 Like

[quote=“Xaxazak, post:24, topic:6286”]Are you claiming you’re not in the minority? Are you claiming to have experience to know whether or not you are?

Are you a developer or part of the games industry? I am both.[/quote]

What a model example in shining armor you are.

I’m tempted to answer. I won’t, because I will not fall so low.

Nevertheless, I see no reason talking to someone who brings up his upbringing as an argument. So you’re a noble, good for you. Enjoy your bubble.

[quote=“Galileus, post:25, topic:6286”]
What a model example in shining armor you are.
[/quote]You said you wouldn’t respond to “my personal experience said you’re not important!” which I claimed was a misrepresentation. I had to reiterate what I said, which included stating my experience.

You then decided to criticize my claim of experience. I am entitled to defend myself when you criticize me. So I explained my roles.

[quote=“Galileus, post:25, topic:6286”]
“dishonest”. “bubble”. “cherry pick”. “you just drop big names so you can boost your credentials”. “talking to a wall”
[/quote]Of course you won’t because you can’t fall up.

[quote=“Galileus, post:25, topic:6286”]
Nevertheless, I see no reason talking to someone who brings up his upbringing as an argument.
[/quote]Ok sure. But I didn’t mention anything remotely related to upbringing so you can keep talking.

That went too far and I’m sorry for that. It’s been a long week and I’m on the edge. While I disagree, I do not think this disagreement is worth such escalation, even though it might seem I feel much stronger about that. End of the day, dev or not, I do recognize you as a hard working and very positive member of this community, and I’m failing miserably to give that fact the weight it deserves.

Should’ve ended with just disagreeing a long ago. And fact remains, I fail to properly rely my point, which would surely flow way better over a pint of beer. Will argue with you on some other point I can rely better, at some other time, If you won’t mind!

Faeria isn’t PW2 at all. You can get all the cards in the game for free and in a reasonable amount of time. I played the game only for 1 season (1 month) and I almost have all the meta cards, even the legendaries. I’m just missing some epics but i can craft them if I want to.

[quote=“Galileus, post:27, topic:6286”]
Will argue with you on some other point I can rely better, at some other time, If you won’t mind!
[/quote]Yep sure :slight_smile: We all get like that on the internet sometimes anyway. I certainly have.


[quote=“Rayton7, post:28, topic:6286”]
Faeria isn’t PW2 at all
[/quote]We really need a formal set of terms for these terms because I feel we’re mostly just disagreeing on what P2W means, and I’m probably annoying people who think I’m being harsher on Faeria than I mean to be.

  • P4AA = pay-for-any-advantage gained whatsoever. (That’s what my interpretation is (and that of many who avoid any of this), but many disagree).
  • P4XA = pay-for-extreme-advantage, where you have next to no chance if you’re unpaid.
  • MP2W = must-pay-to-win. Games that require a purchase to proceed.
  • PoG = pay-or-grind - where you can eventually get everything for free (Faeria).
  • NGMP = no-grind-must-pay. Opposite of PoG.

We’d probably all agree then that Faeria is P4AA & PoG but not P4XA or MP2W. Somehow I doubt that’ll get any traction though.

The three typical categories I see used are…

Free 2 Play - Game is free to play and fair for payers and non-payers alike
Pay 2 Win - Players who pay will gain a significant (large) advantage over non-payers effectively forcing players to pay or lose (this doesn’t describe faeria)
Pay 2 Play - All players must pay to even play the game (basically all single purchase games)

…You can add another category if you want…

Free - Paying doesn’t get you anything

…But that category isn’t very interesting as so few games fit into it.

Few useful terms coined around the interwebs (mostly by Total Biscuit and Jim Frelling Sterling, Son!):

Pay2Skip - boosters or otherwise grind skipping mechanics. Can be used to gain advantage, but in a good system where they are not really required they mostly provide a gap-shortener between no-lives and common folks.

Pay2Pay - full price releases with day 1 in-game shop. Not so much the bonus ones, with good priced post-launch cosmetics, especially if it’s a multiplayer game - and even more especially if it releases content updates for free. Mostly free2play like shops or badly priced shops in a full price game; or non-expansion content shops in single player only games.

Pay2Own - one payment forever. No paid DLC, micro-transactions or other bollocks.

You can use whatever terms you want but Faeria is super fine right now and I never got so many cards in so little time in any other card game.