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What do we think about helping friends when playing ranked?

#1

so a couple of players on discord discussed this issue today and i thought it would be interesting to see what other players think about it as well.

The question was: Is it ok to play ranked and have other players spectate and help you find the best plays?

so my opinion is while it is great fun to discuss lines and play together with friends, it is unfair to the player who is up against “two brains” so to say, especially the closer ladder reset is coming and people helping each other reaching top10.

should ladder be treated like tournament where coaching/helping each other is forbidden while playing or do you guys think it is fine if people want to rank up helping each other?

#2

There’s nothing wrong with spectating. In case of a bad deck or a bad matchup, they wouldn’t be able to help much anyway. And good players with good decks wouldn’t need much help in any case. So the difference friends make is overrated.

#3

i strongly disagree, maybe you are underestimating how important it is to find the best line or to not make mistakes.

good players can miss things, two players wont miss as much as just one player. sure if you are the best player anyway you wont need help, but say you are a decent player and with the help of a top player you reach top10, is that fair?

or why is it ok on ladder to use the help of good players and not in tournaments? where is the difference?

#4

While I agree it’s unfair in principle, in the end, this is just a game and there is nothing on the line except ranking and elo on ladder. If spectating is prohibited on ranked, then you can only do it in casual and you can’t really expect proper games in casual. And it also follows that faeria can’t be streamed in ranked because chat is pointing out lines and misplay. Does this mean ranked Faeria cannot be streamed or must be streamed with delay? It seems unfathomable to me.

Part of the reason we want to climb and improve is to be able to play better players. If friends spectating and discussing lines help improve the level/quality of play, then it seems that’s what we want, we all want to improve and find better lines and we can only do that when we face better plays from opponents. Maybe I am not competitive in nature, but winning is secondary to me, having a high level competitive games sounds good, even if I lose.

#5

I agree it’s unfair and this might be a major issue because ladder ranking is the primary way to gain FWC points now.
But I understand there’s some benefits in spectating on ranked match. We could improve our play and make some fun with our friends. Also we could do similiar thing during Faeria streaming so if we prohibit spectating the ranked match, we should set a delay on every streams too.

I think we need a compromise plan to take advantages from both of views. We want to be fair in the ladder ranking and to play with our friends. Let the ranked match be not spectated during the last week of every season. Due to ELO decay, last week of the season is the most important period to climb to the top 25. If we want to play with our friends, we can do in other time.

I know even the ranked match could not be spectated in game, there are many expedients to avoid the restriction.
But Abrakam should show willing "Every players results are expected to be 100% based on his own player skill.
Streaming is still the thing, but it would be better if viewers try to comment on the play after the turn is done.

#6

i think the best solution would be to make it impossible for anyone to spectate your game if you have refuse friend specate activated. so your friends and your opponents friends cant spectate the game.

an official abrakam rule would also help i think, e.g. we expect players in top100 to play on their own or something. it wont be easy to control but an official rule or statement from abrakam will help to some extent i’m sure.

#7

That still doesn’t stop the streams.

I think it’s better if the Ladder doesn’t count for FWC at all and instead we get a streamlined ingame tournament setup that blocks spectating completely.

Equalizer (everybody has access to all cards), Pantheon Equalizer, non-Pandora Draft, Monocolour (sometimes pre-set, sometimes not), multicolour (idem dito) and they are scheduled at set times, at least thrice a day so it does not really matter where you live, but you can partake only once a day.

#8

Tournaments are often held for cash prizes, rather than simply for fun. And even those tournament participants who don’t win any money are supposed to be among the best players, and so are expected to play “under their own steam”.

Those who habitually play with help from friends are very likely to slip down the ladder rankings as soon as the friends aren’t there for whatever reason. Unless they use the advice they were given when playing on their own. Which is the whole point of friends helping in the first place!

#9

the ranked ladder is the most important way to get FWC points to qualify for the big 4 tournaments a year. so it is important to talk about what is ok on ladder and what isnt.

you can play with your friends last week before ladder reset put your account in top10 or top25 with the help of your friends and then just leave it sit there until season end.

another issue is, if helping is allowed why not pay someone to help you reach top spots on ladder? would that be wrong then?

#10

Because this is explicitely prohibited? Pretty sure losing deliberately on ladder is explicitely forbidden by the ToS, (while coaching is tolerated).

#11

it doesnt say anywhere you cant pay someone to help you reach a top spot on ladder. i dont mean losing to you, that is wintrading and that is forbidden, but you could pay a top player to play with you on phone while he is spectating you and he tells you what to do every turn.

#12

I find your reluctance to accepting help a little ridiculous in this time and age.

In the age of internet, this is simply impossible to avoid. For starters, I can play while my friends watch my screen in real life. I could stream my games too, even if the game doesn’t help with the spectator option.

On the flip side: I think it is very much to the favor of the game as a whole if people that find helpful friends have this kind of edge over those who don’t. The game needs to grow.

I say: outside tournaments, just embrace this. Make it a thing.

#14

whether i find accepting help good or not isnt the point though.

the point is, if we have a competitive scene on ladder (and i am only talking about god rank) then shouldnt everyone play on his own to show his skill and get the position he can reach on his own, rather than get help (could even pay for that) from someone and reach a position on ladder he couldnt reach on his own.

it is like if you play chess and every turn you call your friend who is a grandmaster and he tells you what the best move is, and then you end up winning a match against someone because your friend told you what to do and not because of your own skill.

if we want a serious competitive scene that cant be what we want.

#15

Q: Is it ok to play ranked and have other players spectate and help you find the best plays?

My answer is - yes, of course it is. Is it 100% fair in my opinion? No, not really. I’d prefer that everyone would play on it’s own. But there’s no way around it. It’s the part of the game. Deal with it.

I agree with androkguz, I think this discussion is close to ridiculous. Let’s say my friend who lives close to me is a Faeria pro player and I invited him to my house to watch me play Faeria and to “spectate” me in real life. Is it forbidden? Or should be? And how you can possibly enforce that rule?

Besides that, even if Abrakam would disable spectate function in ranked (which would be very stupid IMHO), I could just share my screen with somebody using some other programs, like TeamViewer. And no, I’m not saying this because I was coached before or I need it. I’m not a high ranked player, I play Faeria for fun. I do not take this game too seriously, as some do.

I understand that Faeria has a competitive scene, but if you want “100% fair” 1v1 match, you’d have to organize IRL sanctioned tournament, Hearthstone-style, with two players on “stage” in front of each other with noise cancelling headphones etc. And we all know that’s impossible at this point.

#16

so what you are saying is, although it is not fair we shouldnt do anything against it because we can not secure that 100% of the player will stick to the rule and we cant prove who does and who doesnt?

that is a bad argument. i can not enforce the rule that nobody should kill another person does that mean i should not have a rule against killing people?

i am not saying they should disable the spectate function, but it would be a start to have a statement that says ranked ladder is a place where you play on your own, as you would do in a tournament. also you have the option to refuse your friends spectating you and still your opponents friend can watch your game, that could be disabled as well or there could be a delay on spectate mode.

i know you can not 100% secure that people arent playing together on rank to help each other reach top spots on ladder, that does NOT mean it is fair or shouldnt be addressed by abrakam.

#17

Really? You’re bringing killing to the discussion? Nice…

What I’m saying is I would prefer if people on high ranks would play independently, but I’m completely OK if they don’t do that. Because I understand that Faeria is an online game and that’s just the part of it. There’s no way around it. That’s just the way it has to be.

OK, so you’re fighting for the official rule, that players on ranked cannot use ANY help from third parties. How you want to enforce that rule? Because for me it would be just a dead law, a blank. What about streaming, what about IRL help, what about sharing your desktop, deck tracker applications etc.? Who needs rules, that are impossible to execute?

Be a Don Quixote if you want, fight the windmills.

Also, that rule would be somewhat against the spirit of helping each other, helping new players, helping friends. So it even may be potentially harmful to the game, reduce player engagement and cooperation. Do you really want to enforce that hard tournement rules on a fun video game? This game needs new players, casuals, and seems like all you want is a hardened ultra-competetive scene. Well, I’m against it.

#18

I think you guys are defending something that doesn’t really benefit anyone. Specially not faeria.

Alright, let me start with what I would propose:

  • Receiving help in ladder should be perfectly legal, even in god ranks
  • Actual tournaments, however, should not have this benefit. As long as those tournaments aren’t IRL, you can’t enforce this any other way than punishing those that are somehow discovered, but it can still be stated as a rule
  • You should obviously be able to kick out friends that are spectating you

So, why do I think help should be legal? Because it’s better for the game. It incentivices people sharing the game and looking for more brains outside the game to play it.
You can’t actually be a guy playing chess in the biggest chess tournament and have a chessmaster in your phoneline who would help, because that chessmaster by all reasoning should be competing against you in that tournament. But you can get many smaller brains to help and if that pays off, that’s better for the game

Also: it’s more fun! Have you ever teamed up in front of a screen with a friend to try to outsmart some opponent or group of opponents? The matches get crazy complicated really fast. The discussions are fantastic. Really, try it out.

#19

just as an example of how bad your argument is, you can say the same about any rule. you cant ensure or enforce that players arent playing together in tournaments, so why is there a rule for that? this is getting a very general discussion about rules now but you are wrong. if we would dismiss every rule that is not enforceable we wouldnt have any rules/laws left…

i am not fighting for a rule, if everybody says (ideally everyone who is concerned with competitive playinge) it is fine for him to play against a player who gets help from a better player to reach a top spot on ladder then fine for me.

my opinion is a different one, i think it is unfair to get an advantage from a second players opinion while playing on ranked (talking about god rank here) to secure a spot you could not reach on your own.

of course i am not talking about casual players or new players who are learning the game that is completely not the point.

#20

i think ladder should be treated as tournamnets, since you have FWC points as reward at the end of seasons. i doubt it is better for the game honestly.

it is in your example of course, because you are talking about players getting new people into faeria and playing with them, which is perfectly fine. that however is not the case i am talking about. the problem i see is that players who already are good enough for god rank get help from even better players to reach top spots on ladder that they could not reach on their own.
they can practice in lobbies with other players or on casual or discuss their games afterwards to become better at faeria but not while playing in god rank. god rank should be for solo competition only otherwise the competitive scene loses its credibility of portraying the best players.

yes of course i have played faeria with other players, in team tournaments mainly and it was great fun and i still enjoy playing with people being on discord with me and discussing lines and such.

#21

I feel as if spectating and helping a friend is no different from, say, being a diamond in rocket league and carrying a gold (assuming that a good player is spectating a not so good player). The only difference is the opponent unknowingly playing against two players. Anyways, I don’t see anyway of fixing the issue because there is always screen sharing and spectating is a feature of almost every card game. As for tournament play, when money is on the line, it should be a fair 1 vs 1 fight.